Expanding adventures by asking questions

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SkinnyOrc
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby SkinnyOrc » Thu May 25, 2017 1:31 pm

Something else good to fill in is a name for the castle. The whole module is very deliberately generic, it sounds like so each GM could customise it themselves. But there's no way it would really be known as "The Keep".

Also there's humanoids in the CoC that aren't in AFF. Orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins, minotaurs and the priests are in both games. The owlbear I'd convert, just because I like the pic of it on the inside cover! So what's left are the kobolds, bugbears and gnolls, any suggestions for replacements for those from the pit books?

Names for each tribe would be good too. There's two tribes of orcs, and one each of goblins, hobgoblins and whatever replaces the kobolds, bugbears and gnolls.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Dupont » Thu May 25, 2017 2:01 pm

Owlbears are too cool to drop I agree.

Kobolds were always very trap orientated, so maybe annoying things that mess with the party in similar ways. Or something along the lines of lizardmen and the like?

I can imagine things like Clones, Leprechauns and Minimites, or Wheelies to give it a real AFF feel. It has got that very eclectic feel already so I cant imagine anything looking out of place.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby SkinnyOrc » Thu May 25, 2017 2:46 pm

I've just had a look and the best I could come up with for the monsters there in numbers are kobolds=gremlins, gnolls=tuskers and bugbears=common trolls. The gremlins are a sneaky lot so I can see them going in for traps. Agree there's a bit of an odd mix of creatures there anyway so it wouldn't be a problem throwing in some other AFF favourites.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Dupont » Thu May 25, 2017 4:50 pm

By the way, Raging Swan Press have just released a free product called '1000 abnormal hobgoblins' that might be of interest in this situation
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Ruffnut » Thu May 25, 2017 6:31 pm

Dupont wrote:By the way, Raging Swan Press have just released a free product called '1000 abnormal hobgoblins' that might be of interest in this situation


Looks cool!
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Robb 1 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:57 pm

SkinnyOrc wrote:Something else good to fill in is a name for the castle. The whole module is very deliberately generic, it sounds like so each GM could customise it themselves. But there's no way it would really be known as "The Keep".

Also there'qs humanoids in the CoC that aren't in AFF. Orcs, goblins, ogres, hobgoblins, minotaurs and the priests are in both games. The owlbear I'd convert, just because I like the pic of it on the inside cover! So what's left are the kobolds, bugbears and gnolls, any suggestions for replacements for those from the pit books?

Names for each tribe would be good too. There's two tribes of orcs, and one each of goblins, hobgoblins and whatever replaces the kobolds, bugbears and gnolls.


other ideas gnoll= Nyadach description says wolf like heads iknow gnolls are hyena but close Garks for bug bears advanced pygmy lizard men for kobolds also they make excelent sappers if the humanoids were to lay siege to the keep.

how about a name like Shatterstone Keep? :D
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Nuvole! » Fri May 26, 2017 3:37 am

I actually quite like Kobolds and they also have a good link with real earth mythology... I'd keep them as Kobolds.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby SkinnyOrc » Sat May 27, 2017 2:22 am

Robb 1 wrote:other ideas gnoll= Nyadach description says wolf like heads iknow gnolls are hyena but close
Yep they do look similar. The reason I didn't suggest them is OotP says "there are very few remaining members of the once proud race, dwelling in small clans in isolated caves and burrows". It sounded like maybe they keep to themselves too much for this. The tuskers from BtP are also animal featured with being a sort of boar-man and get described as "often drawn to serving a local warlord or evil priest, who will use them as guards and mercenaries". So they seemed like a better fit.

Robb 1 wrote:Garks for bug bears
Keen to include them but the description says they live among goblins rather than form their own tribes. So in the goblin lair maybe guarding the chieftain? Doragar do the same amongst orcs so throw some of them in too.

I was thinking common trolls were too powerful to replace bugbears. But then I noticed they have SKILL 7 if they're a primitive tribe that hasn't had weapon training. So that would make them about right, slightly more dangerous than the tuskers, who are slightly more than the orcs and hobgoblins.

The ogre also needs to be extra nasty (SKILL 9) and maybe have a missus as well to be any challenge.

Robb 1 wrote:advanced pygmy lizard men for kobolds also they make excelent sappers if the humanoids were to lay siege to the keep.
There's already a lair of lizard men out in a swampy part of the wilderness and pygmy lizard men live in jungles anyway. The sapper idea for whoever does the kobolds could be interesting.

Robb 1 wrote:how about a name like Shatterstone Keep? :D
It's a big improvement on The Keep! I reckon get a few names together and pick the best one.

Nuvole! wrote:I actually quite like Kobolds and they also have a good link with real earth mythology... I'd keep them as Kobolds.
Ha I never knew they were from mythology! This has all about them and there's nothing I spotted about being dog headed. So I guess Gygax and co made that bit up. They can always have the same stats as gremlins and then in the conversion you say it's up to the director which they prefer to use.
Last edited by SkinnyOrc on Sat May 27, 2017 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Nuvole! » Sat May 27, 2017 5:53 am

SkinnyOrc wrote:
Robb 1 wrote:how about a name like Shatterstone Keep? :D
It's a big improvement on The Keep! I reckon get a few names together and pick the best one.

If I remember right, in Mystara's lore (that's where this adventure is set in canon), it is the Duke's Road Keep (however, I may remember incorrectly).
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby SkinnyOrc » Sat May 27, 2017 6:00 am

Nuvole! wrote:If I remember right, in Mystara's lore (that's where this adventure is set in canon), it is the Duke's Road Keep (however, I may remember incorrectly).
Think you might be right. But it was retrospectively set there and named in later products, that's not in the module itself. It's an improvement name wise although maybe not going to work as well for Allansia.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Robb 1 » Sat May 27, 2017 11:23 pm

D&D 3.5 has several Race books one is Races of the Dragon it includes Kobolds which are more Dragon headed than dog headed. You could use the base stats for the pygmy lizard men but make them a more technologically advanced subterranean dwelling independant lizard man race (who Hate Gnomes :D that would make them ideal kobolds) :lol:

Any thoughts on the Cave of the unknown ? Could it be a lost or deserted destroyed dwarven colony which fought a losing battle to keep the caves in check, especially after the evil priest arrived. Do ghostly Dwarves roam it's ruined halls and corridors forever as penance for their failure?
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby SkinnyOrc » Sun May 28, 2017 5:47 am

Robb 1 wrote:D&D 3.5 has several Race books one is Races of the Dragon it includes Kobolds which are more Dragon headed than dog headed.
That Wikipedia page about mythological kobolds has a link to another about their history in D&D, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons). Seems at some point they made a switch from small, dog headed goblinoids to something suspiciously similar to what had been called a draconian. Personally I prefer the original version. That could just be nostalgia talking but it is true them being goblinoid is more like their mythological roots.

Robb 1 wrote:Any thoughts on the Cave of the unknown ? Could it be a lost or deserted destroyed dwarven colony which fought a losing battle to keep the caves in check, especially after the evil priest arrived. Do ghostly Dwarves roam it's ruined halls and corridors forever as penance for their failure?
That's a great concept that's gone in my use somewhere pile. The problem with having it there is if a dwarven colony was so close to the keep the humans and dwarves would know each other and it wouldn't be very unknown. I was thinking slot in a Dyson Logos natural cave with some worked bits in there, maybe this one? If the priests are gathering forces there could be more moved in here.

Something I really don't like reading the module is everyone in the keep knows all about the CoC and direct adventurers there like it's a tourist spot. "Yep you adventurer types will be wanting to head up to the Caves of Chaos. Nope no idea why all the others I told about it were too incompetent to wipe it out. Nope or why the commander of the keep doesn't besiege it and slaughter the lot of them. But I think it's 'cos the caves are there so you lot can 'cut your teeth'. No I have no idea what that means either." So instead the old mines (CoC) are just one of a number of locations they can find out about by talking to the locals, no more important sounding than any of the others. The random rumour list would need changes along those lines too.

I made a treasure map for my kid by staining paper with coffee, drying it in the oven and then drawing on it with a blue ink pen that ran a bit. I was thinking I could make a great players map of the area that way and take a photo of it. It wouldn't matter I have limited artistic ability because it's just something the characters have knocked up so it'll be realistically crap. The map would just show the main terrain features; the keep, the road, the river, the swamp and so on. Then as the players find out about places to go check out they can mark their locations on it. The Director could even decide to relocate the CoC and the CotU to throw players who knew too much out of character, they're not on the players map to start with anyway.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Robb 1 » Sun May 28, 2017 8:34 pm

I made a treasure map for my kid by staining paper with coffee, drying it in the oven and then drawing on it with a blue ink pen that ran a bit. I was thinking I could make a great players map of the area that way and take a photo of it. It wouldn't matter I have limited artistic ability because it's just something the characters have knocked up so it'll be realistically crap. The map would just show the main terrain features; the keep, the road, the river, the swamp and so on. Then as the players find out about places to go check out they can mark their locations on it. The Director could even decide to relocate the CoC and the CotU to throw players who knew too much out of character, they're not on the players map to start with anyway.[/quote]

Yep did the same with some of my stuff but used an aga to get the result it worked realy well :D

Like the map example had another thought how about using B2 Module was into the unknown or something like that it was a2 level dungeon with natural caves and a man/humanoid made level it also left the rooms blank to fillin as you chose also had a list of suggested encounters and treasures.

On a slightly different track as with the Kobold dog headed in d& d is a small human looking being in actual mythology. I think its fasinating that rpg games create images of mythical creatures like goblins as sword fodder when they were very magical beings akin to the fair folk thats one area i quite liked about Dragon warriors they were magical sneaky little gits rarely seen but often creating mayhem as are elves who are soulless and also not very pleasant
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby Dupont » Sun May 28, 2017 8:50 pm

Seeing as Kobolds have a history going from reptilian D&D things to dogheaded goblinoid things in mythology, you could transform them into a bunch of mismatched things, dogheaded mutant monsters and crocodile headed buddies. Just a thought, it sort of feels in keeping with some gamebook stuff.
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Re: Expanding adventures by asking questions

Postby SkinnyOrc » Mon May 29, 2017 12:44 am

Robb 1 wrote:into the unknown or something like that it was a2 level dungeon with natural caves and a man/humanoid made level it also left the rooms blank to fillin as you chose also had a list of suggested encounters and treasures.
That would be B1 Into the Unknown. Bit of a coincidence but I looked at Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (AD&D2 sequel) at the weekend and that marks Caves of the Unknown on its map as Quasqueton, which was the real name of the place B1 was set in. I guess a lot of people had put it there down the years with them both having "unknown" in the name. I'd rather have B1 be a bit more off the beaten track, it's supposed to be a long lost stronghold of a couple of famous heros and it's kind of easy to find there! Plus it'd be good if there was a cave that was actually a cave for a change :)

Robb 1 wrote:I think its fasinating that rpg games create images of mythical creatures like goblins as sword fodder when they were very magical beings akin to the fair folk
Yep RPG conventions are so ingrained they've taken over the meanings. Looks like goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds and bugbears were all fairy type creatures or even spirits. Tolkien made goblins a race you could fight and orcs came from him too as another name for goblin. But! That's in line with the Scandinavian sagas where trolls, giant's, dwarves and elves were often dealt with at the pointy end of a sword. What I read somewhere was Tolkien wanted to write a heroic saga style myth for the Anglo-Saxons. Of course Gygax made his own changes and some were a bit random...

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