House rule: Pilosophical Magic

HedgeWizard
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:09 pm

As part of my experiments with this I have moved away from the traditional magic roles and it was becoming a headache to calculate effect, magic point usage etc.

Instead I have it as an unopposed roll against the skill + philosophical magic skill with a negative modifier as follows:

Casting time + size of effect + range = modifier

Casting time (also called pondering time)
0 >1 day
-1 6 hours to one day
-2 Less than 6 hours
-3 Less than 15 minutes

Size of effect (example with transform body)
0 insignificant (change eye colour)
-1 Small (change a facial feature)
-2 Medium (change face for someone else)
-3 Large (change size of body/sex of person)

Range
0 Touch
-1 short
-2 medium
-3 long

If you have any thoughts then let me know, I'd be interested to know if anyone else gives them a try!
HedgeWizard
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:36 pm

In terms of magic points cost this is the same as the modifier for the spell.

So for example someone changing the eye colour of another player (insignificant effect 0) while touching them (0) and doing without any preparation (3) would have a -3 on their roll and use 3 magic points.

Someone trying to grow a pigs tail on someone (small effect -1) in a bar (short range -1) after pondering them for an hour or so (-2) would have -4 on thier roll and use 4 magic points.

Someone trying to utterly destroy someone (large effect -3), who is on the other side of a field (long range -3) and are doing it in the heat of the moment (-3) would have a -9 to their roll and use a huge 9 magic points.

So it can run up quickly but that's the price you pay for flexibility and going to the heart of things!
Ruffnut
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby Ruffnut » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:10 pm

HedgeWizard wrote:
JohnK wrote:No problem at all! In case you need some help with greek words, I'd be glad to help.


Hi John, I've been doing some more work on this and wondered if you could give me the correct Greek terms for the following words so that they combine well:

Verbs:

Create
Destroy
Transform
Command
Perceive

Nouns:

Air
Water
Fire
Earth (as in ground/rock)
Soul/Spirit
Body
Animal
Plant
Image

Thank you!

Looks. Good! Google translate could work
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HedgeWizard
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:50 pm

Google translate is a wonderful tool but does a terrible job with conjugation and noun cases. Before you know it you've written something as rediculous as Romanus aunt domus! :-)

John knows Greek so it would be great if he can help us get it right, not to mention that a word in English can have multiple different words in Greek. Just look at love vs agape, Eros, stoika etc.

But failing that I'll be diving into the dictionary and grammar book myself! :-)
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JohnK
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby JohnK » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:39 pm

Promise I will try to give some suggestions. There is a problem though to write down the right pronunciation. I ll need a bit of time but i ll try. Also i ll need to find some archaic forms of these words (won't be much difficult). So tommorow I will have some suggestions.
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:45 am

Thank you John, much appreciated!
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JohnK
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby JohnK » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:14 am

Here are some suggestions for pronunciations and the use of the words in simple phrases and if you need them in plural.
Pronunciation:
The capital letter means that the word is accentuated on that letter.
The i is pronounced as in image
The ou like in router
The h like in hell
The th like in the
The ph like in phone
The a like in arm

Verbs
Create = δημιουργώ (thimiouryO) the y like in you
Destroy = χαλλώ (hallO)
Transform = μεταμορφώνω (metamorphOno), the e like in help
Command = διατάσσω (thiatAsso)
Perceive = διακρίνω (thiakrino) accentuated on the last i

To form a phrase you will need the noun in accusative form with its corresponidng article.

Nouns with their respective articles in accusative:
Air = τον αέρα (ton aEra), the e like in earth
Water = το ύδωρ (to ithor) accentuated on the i
Fire = το πύρ (to pir)
Earth ground = το έδαφος (to Ethaphos) e like in earth
Earth rock = τον βράχο (ton vrAho)
Soul = την ψυχή (tin psihi) accentuated on the last i
Spirit = το πνεύμα (to pnEvma) the e like in earth
Body = το σώμα (to sOma)
Animal = το ζώον (to zOon)
Plant = το φυτόν (to phitOn)
Image = την εικόνα (tin ikOna)

So when you want to say in first person "perceive spirit" you 'll say "thiakrino to pnevma", for "command rock" "thiatasso ton vraho".
If you put the noun with the article before the verb it is also correct and makes sense, it also sounds more archaic and poetic. So that would be for example "ton vraho thiatasso".
If you refer to someone else: "he/she commands rock" the verb would change its ending! The correct would be "thiatassi ton vraho". All the verbs you mention would change their final "o" to "i", except destroy which would become χαλλάει (hallai).

And if you need the plural for the nouns in accusative that would be:
airs = τους αέρηδες (tous aErithes)
waters = τα νερά (ta nerA) the e like in earth
fires = τις πυρές (tis pirEs)
grounds = τα εδάφη (ta ethAphi)
rocks = τους βράχους (tous vrAhous)
souls = τις ψυχές (tis psihEs)
spirits = τα πνεύματα (ta pnEvmata)
bodies = τα σώματα (ta sOmata)
animals = τα ζώα (ta zOa)
plants = τα φυτά (ta phitA)
images = τις εικόνες (tis ikOnes)

That means for "Ι transform souls = metamorphono tis psihes" and "he/she transforms souls = metamorphoni tis psihes".
“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”
HedgeWizard
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:30 pm

Wow, thank you John! This is perfect and is exactly what I was thinking of. Are you a professor of Ancient Greek or a keen enthusiast and student?

I really like the reversing of the verb and noun to make it more poetic. :-)

If I want to publish something here without using a google account how can I do it? Does anyone have any tips?
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JohnK
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby JohnK » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 pm

No I m not studying them professionaly, I just like this kind of history of language and there are some parts that I still remember from the days back at school, when studied some texts. I especially find very very interesting the etymology of words, but that s another subject!

The reversal gives emphasis on the first word either the verb or the noun, whatever goes first. It was sometimes used by some modern poets but that would sound strange for a modern speaker.

Thanks!
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JohnK
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby JohnK » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:22 pm

Only one correction needed, my mistake, the plural of "waters' is "ithata" (accentuated on the i). "Nera" is also correct in meaning but "ithata" is more correct and comes from the same root. Sorry.
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby Nuvole! » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:58 am

Is it in modern Greek that delta is pronounced "th"?
I found it surprising (to the ignorant me) that, for example, δημιουργώ as a verb is pronounced thimiouryO (with the y like in you).
After all, in English there is the word Demiurge (see Platonic phylosophy) that is the noun derived from δημιουργώ, but I learnt right now that delta is read "th" and gamma is read "y" like in you, at least in that context... a bit like in Swedish! :shock:
I beieve it is in modern Greek too that eta becomes "i" (like inn) and not "e" (like end) anymore... like in Athinai, isn't it?
That's why I guessed this may come from modern Greek, perhaps... or most likely it is pure ignorance on my side! :mrgreen:
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JohnK
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby JohnK » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:31 am

Nuvole, you are not wrong about eta, delta and gamma. What I have tried is to write is the pronunciation as simply as I could. So eta is pronounced like i but a bit longer in duration, perhaps like in meek. For delta and gamma there is no corresponiding letter for pronuncaition so I suggested th and y though this is not perfect. Not a th like thunder but like in the and y sounds similar with yes.

I don't know how greek words would be pronounced in an Erasmian pronunciation! I used the modern greek phonology which was established probably in medieval times (or even with the appearance of koine greek in hellenistic times and later antiquity?). As for the pronunciation of the ancient dialects, that would make the subject very difficult!

Hope that helps!
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby Ruffnut » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:36 pm

My friend who knows Latin would find this thread interesting!
He just sits there tapping away all day on a tiny screen. But he tells everyone that he is slaying Orcs.
HedgeWizard
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:21 am

JohnK wrote:I don't know how greek words would be pronounced in an Erasmian pronunciation!


Your both into an area where few of us could challenge you and I certainly wouldn't dare :-). I think we can leave it to groups to decide which pronunciation they use and how pedantic they want to be, or even if they want to use English with a bad Greek accent ;-)

I'll certainly be using yours though!
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Re: House rule: Pilosophical Magic

Postby HedgeWizard » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:21 am

Ruffnut wrote:My friend who knows Latin would find this thread interesting!


And you are not? ;-)

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