House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

TheoOfSilverton
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by TheoOfSilverton » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:36 pm

Yeah... sometimes simple thought need an awful lot of words to explain! :lol:

One think I'm wondering though...
About my suggested bonuses/penalties for All out attack (and Targeted Strike) - I'm wondering if they're too generous or too mean depending on the weapons involved.

The basic All Out attack is a -2 penalty for every +1 Stamina inflicted, so a character could go for a -6 penalty, and inflict an extra 3 Stamina points of damage.

My options for heavy swinging weapons are effectively a -1 penalty for each Stamina point of extra damage; Or for much shorter weapons a -3 penalty for every extra Stamina point inflicted.
To deliver an extra 3 points of damage as the initial example, someone wielding a heavy swinging weapon would only take a -3 Combat Total penalty; while someone with a much shorter weapon would need a -9 Combat Total penalty (never gonna happen).

I wondered whether everyone should stick to the -2 per +1 Stamina, for the level of attack they want, and THEN reduce this penalty by 1 for heavy swinging weapons, or increase it by 1 for much shorter weapons...?
So to deliver an extra 3 points of damage, someone wielding a heavy swinging weapon would take a -5 Combat Total penalty (-2 -2 -2 +1), while someone with a much shorter weapon would need a -7 (-2 -2 -2 -1) Combat Total penalty.

It keeps the modifiers a bit closer to the standard rules, but maybe isn't as intuitive or simple to work out.
What's your thoughts?
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HedgeWizard
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by HedgeWizard » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:15 pm

My initial thought is that at points like this it is best to stand back and ask again what you are trying to simulate before you get lost in a rabbit warren of pluses and minuses.

You want to show the ability of a weapon to cause additional and potentially catastrophic damage to it's target and how easy that is to do. In real life if someone comes up to you and shoves a short sword into you it will be just as catastrophic as being hit by a poleaxe.

I think that if you have taken into account the distance advantage which one weapon has over another (most heavy weapons can be argued to have this) then the modifier for causing additional damage should remain the same across them all. A spear is quite a light weapon... but being on the end of a good thrust will be as bad as being hit by a heavy hammer.

TheoOfSilverton
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by TheoOfSilverton » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:40 pm

Thanks for the advice HedgeWizard. Stepping back to consider the end goal, is a good call .

I agree that being whacked by a pole axe would probably be as devastating as being run through with a short sword, but I see these results coming after the attack, after it is determined whether or not the attack is successful.

In the case of an 'All Out' attack, the character is sacrificing some of their skill in order to inflict more damage. This suggests to me that the character has 'lost it' for some reason, and is no longer giving due care and attention to their own well-being.
They might feel that all is lost, and desperately put all their energy into a last 'hail-mary' attack, or they might simply be out of their minds with anger or hatred. Or they could just be overconfident, assuming that their opponent isn't much of a threat, and become sloppy or careless in their haste.

(Main example I can think of right now is Luke v Vader at end of Jedi... Luke has come to terms with the fact that he is going to die, but then Vader threatens to turn his sister to the dark side. This is the straw that breaks the camel's back, and Luke goes 'All Out'... Vader abruptly realises he's made a hefty tactical error, and backs off, fighting 'Defensive'...)

Anyway, the kind of attacks made when in this state of mind are not going to be a flurry of determined, calculated parries and counters. They're just going to be blinkered, lashing out, which is why I feel that heavy swinging weapons should get a bonus as they perfectly suit this kind of raw aggression.
And at the other end of the scale, someone lashing out with a weapon that is much shorter than their opponents is just going to be impotently slashing at something out of reach. To deal with an opponent who can keep you at bay because of their longer weapon, you really need your wits about you. It's an uphill struggle - not something you can do effectively if you're just trying to batter whatever you can reach into submission.

I'm leaning towards the -2 Attack per +1 Stamina, followed by a weapon-related modifier applied after the level of the All Out attack has been decided.


And thinking about 'Targeted Strike'. It dawned on me that there are different approaches that could be taken. One is that a fighter takes their time to set-up or look for a specific opening, before delivering a powerful strike. Another is that they relentlessly harass the less armoured spots with less powerful attacks, but in the hope of striking earlier, or more often.

Both are valid, so I think it'd be reasonable to allow players to either reduce either their Combat Total OR the Stamina Damage that is inflicted in order to reduce their opponent's armour roll... Obviously they would need to say which way they're playing it BEFORE rolling their dice.


Anyway, I think all this started because of the duel at the end of the film Rob Roy... The Liam Neeson v Tim Roth one. Worth checking out on youtube.
In a time of fear and confusion, silence charging the air
The sunlight is gone, darkness lives on, in the heart of the dragon's lair

HedgeWizard
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by HedgeWizard » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:29 am

I remember that duel!

Are you going there be producing an updated version of the rules?

TheoOfSilverton
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by TheoOfSilverton » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:22 pm

Yeah, updated sheet on the way. There's a couple of bits I've been deliberating over, and a few tweaks to other wording here and there...
Won't be long
In a time of fear and confusion, silence charging the air
The sunlight is gone, darkness lives on, in the heart of the dragon's lair

TheoOfSilverton
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by TheoOfSilverton » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:02 pm

Updated sheet.... enjoy!
Attachments
House Rules - Arms & Armour FEB2018.png
House Rules - Arms & Armour FEB2018.png (233.14 KiB) Viewed 919 times
In a time of fear and confusion, silence charging the air
The sunlight is gone, darkness lives on, in the heart of the dragon's lair

HedgeWizard
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by HedgeWizard » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:13 pm

I really like this, I will be using it! :-)

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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by Ruffnut » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:41 pm

TheoOfSilverton wrote:Updated sheet.... enjoy!
Already sent the sheet to my players!
He just sits there tapping away all day on a tiny screen. But he tells everyone that he is slaying Orcs.

TheoOfSilverton
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by TheoOfSilverton » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:46 pm

Pleased to hear you guys are making use of it! You'll have to give me any feedback from your players.

:)
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Nuvole!
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by Nuvole! » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:59 pm

Just a quick thought: you may want to allow some special features (disarm, targeted strike, etc.) only to characters with selected weapon special skill at 3 or above. The reason for this could be that you can do that special moves only if you are a master at your weapon and not before.
This way you preserve the straightforward simplicity of the game at the early stages, when the player is learning the ropes, and add this extra layer of complexity only later on.
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HedgeWizard
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by HedgeWizard » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:05 pm

Nuvole! wrote:Just a quick thought: you may want to allow some special features (disarm, targeted strike, etc.) only to characters with selected weapon special skill at 3 or above. The reason for this could be that you can do that special moves only if you are a master at your weapon and not before.
This way you preserve the straightforward simplicity of the game at the early stages, when the player is learning the ropes, and add this extra layer of complexity only later on.
I like that idea, it's something I'll be applying.

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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by Nuvole! » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:06 pm

How about reviewing / adding also rules for unarmed combat, such as grappling, wrestling and the like, including between an unarmed character and another character with a weapon? ;)
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TheoOfSilverton
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by TheoOfSilverton » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:51 pm

Nuvole! wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:06 pm
How about reviewing / adding also rules for unarmed combat, such as grappling, wrestling and the like, including between an unarmed character and another character with a weapon?
Hmmmm...

I'm always wary about rules which elevate the ablities of martial artists too high, but there is certainly scope to add a bit of flavour for different unarmed fighting styles.

Off the top of my head, I'd separate unarmed combat into four distinct areas:
1) Punching. Limited range, safer, basic.
2) Kicking. Feet. Some can leave you off balance or exposed, but you get better range.
3) Throwing. Ranging from tripping people up to hurling them around. Need close contact.
4) Restraining. Either standing or lying down, controlling an enemy by restricting their movement, may or may not include joint locks.

In the real world, different martial arts use different combinations of these, and with different levels of commitment, ranging from 'fun sport' to 'no-holds-barred'.

Then there's the knowledge of vital strikes or pressure points. I wouldn't want these to get too overpowered, but there is scope to have some bonus.

I'm just finishing off organising my thoughts for Mass Battles, then I'll think about this unarmed stuff a bit deeper...
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HedgeWizard
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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by HedgeWizard » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:19 pm

TheoOfSilverton wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:51 pm
I'm always wary about rules which elevate the ablities of martial artists too high, but there is certainly scope to add a bit of flavour for different unarmed fighting styles.
Don't forget that for medieval knights and men at arms as well as in medieval Japan and other places; various forms of unarmed combat (certainly grappling but others to depending on where you where) were normal parts of your training since childhood. We think of martial arts these days as very distinct animals in which someone specialised in a branch of techniques. But this is a relatively new phenomenon and previously it was more normal to learn lots of bits from everywhere. For the world of Fighting Fantasy it would be similar.

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Re: House Rules: Weapons & Armour...

Post by Nuvole! » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:13 am

Without overdoing, if you want some half-idea about pressure points, you may have a quick look at this: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2299&p=10019&hilit=karmic#p10019
Just be careful about the risk of going off topic ;)
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