Outnumbered combat rules

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:12 am

If 3 heroes oppose six monsters, the bonus is of +1 for two monsters facing each single heroes, or the bonus is of +3 for all monsters because they are 3 more monsters than heroes ? I'm not sure how i must handle this rule.

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:51 am

When 3 monsters fight 3 heroes, if monsters have each two attacks, do we apply +1 to each monsters because of the extra attacks ? It's like outnumbered combat.

HedgeWizard
Adventurer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by HedgeWizard » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:57 am

The rule is simulating the advantage you gain in a combat by ganging up on someone so that they cannot cover themselves as easily against attacks. So it should be calculated individually for each separate combat.

But that also this opens up some more interesting tactical options for the GM than just dividing the number of monsters by the number of heros. If you have a barbarian with a tiny thief and clumsy wizard then you might put more on the barbarian or even the inverse to make the others run away.

HedgeWizard
Adventurer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by HedgeWizard » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:16 am

For the multiple attacks I remember that it said in Out of the Pit that the attacks meant that the monster could attack multiple heros at once rather than having multiple attacks against one hero. So there would be no application of the multiple attacker bonus.

This shows the ability of the monster to fight lots of people at once e.g. Because they are big, ambidextrous etc.

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:14 pm

I think that the number of attack a heroes receive are equal to the number of outnumbered bonus for monsters facing a single heroes. If three Minotaur fight against three heroes, some heroes must possibly fight not only one minotaurs but the others too, because minotaurs have two attack. In a fight like that, one of the heros of the party can be attacked three time by different foes, even if there is only three foes and three heroes in the fight. The bonus, is of +2 for the three minotaurs attacking one of the heroes. That's the way I see it.

HedgeWizard
Adventurer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by HedgeWizard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:49 am

Well the joy with this is that you don't need to worry too much about the exact orthodox interpretation of a rule. If your group are happy with that then go for it!

But here is the text from Out of the Pit on this point:

2. NUMBER OF ATTACKS. Solo players may ignore this score, as it is only used in a multi-player game. In most cases there are no attacks, which means that the creature has only a single attack. Otherwise, the number given I dictated the maximum number of opponents that a creature can fight in one attack round. If the creature has more attacks than there are adventurers, it does not get any extra attacks. Each attack will be conducted from the single attack strength rolled for the creature, unless it says otherwise in the creature's description.

HedgeWizard
Adventurer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by HedgeWizard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:05 am

Also in the AFF rulebook it says:

Multiple Attacks
Some creatures have 2 or more attacks. These creatures may inflict damage on multiple opponents, up to the number of attacks, but may only attack a single opponent once.

So that's the rules take on it but even the rulebook itself encourages you to make your own house rules if you like.

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:17 pm

I play only the rules in the book. The rules are good. I don't want to change them in anyway. The only thing i don't take in the rules is the possibility for player to have the talent combat reactions and ambidextre. When a players have 12 in skill and 6 in his weapon special skill, the talent combat reactions make the game too much easy because that talent cut in half the outnumbered rules and that rules is essential for the game balance. The game balance must stay every time, even for old heroes. And ambidextre is too much bad ass.

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:04 am

Anyway, it's like you said, one ennemy can't attack the same heroes 2 time in a attack round. Otherwise, the game would be too much killer. I never played AFF for now. But I hope to try it soon.

HedgeWizard
Adventurer
Posts: 145
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by HedgeWizard » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:16 am

Because it wouldn't be to easy with skill 12 and combat skill 6? You are basically a God at that point :D

Hope you get to run a game soon! It's a great little system

User avatar
SkinnyOrc
Knight
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by SkinnyOrc » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:03 am

In practice the main use of multiple attacks for creatures is to stop the party outnumbering them too much. You might want to take a look at this thread.

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:12 pm

I read what I find in you link. What do you mean by stopping the party outnumbering them too much ? If a monsters of 2 attack have 4 heroes attacking him, the bonus of each heroes is of 2 and not of 3, like it is normally with a monster of 1 attack, even if the heroes are surrounded by 3 other monsters of the same type ?

Mat
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by Mat » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:42 am

I think I understand all now, after reading again all the topic and make a simulation of combat. But you know what, it's a little bit confusing at the beginning. Now it's okay.

User avatar
SkinnyOrc
Knight
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by SkinnyOrc » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:16 am

Mat wrote:What do you mean by stopping the party outnumbering them too much ?
Most of the creatures with multiple attacks only appear in ones or twos according to the pit books (although it's a good idea to treat those number appearing as a guide only). So the most common situations for outnumbering are:

1. A number of relatively weak creatures with 1 attack getting outnumbering bonuses on the PCs by mobbing them.
2. The PCs ganging up on a single powerful monster who has better SKILL. The PCs getting a big outnumbering bonus can make these fights too easy but the monster having multiple attacks limits the outnumbering.
Mat wrote:If a monsters of 2 attack have 4 heroes attacking him, the bonus of each heroes is of 2 and not of 3, like it is normally with a monster of 1 attack, even if the heroes are surrounded by 3 other monsters of the same type ?
To be honest the rulebook could be clearer on this, it's open to interpretation. This is mine and is based on the idea it's better to favour the outnumbered monster so they're still challenging.

If you had 4 heroes and a 1A monster like you said they'd get +3 to AS. If the monster has 2A I would give each hero +1, each pair of heroes against 1 attack or 2 versus 1.

If there are 3 more monsters of the same type then it's 4 vs 4 and there's no outnumbering bonus. The monsters having 2A has no effect as it only allows them to fight 2 opponents without penalty, not attack 1 opponent twice.

If there were 3 heroes vs 1 2A monster I'd round the outnumbering down and as there aren't enough PCs to all get +1 then none do. You could make it 1 PC gets no outnumbering and the other 2 get +1, but there's no logical way to decide which PC gets no bonus and it's making the fight easier.

drbargle
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:47 pm
Location: Doncaster, more or less
Contact:

Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Post by drbargle » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:03 am

A related question to those in this thread is: how do you rule on the canny use of defensive fighting and feints and all out attacks?

By this I mean where one or two Adventurers attract the attacks of a big monster, but by fighting defensively minimise the chances of taking damage, while the remaining Adventurers go for all out attacks (if the outnumbering bonus is high enough) or feints (with no risk of taking damage, never mind extra damage) to chop the monster to bits.

One solution to this is to randomise the attacks of the monster, so that no Adventurer can be certain that they won't be subject to attack (or that fighting defensively won't be wasted, as they cower behind a shield as the monster ignores them). But this invalidates clever play. So another option is to have the monster respond intelligently (as intelligently as is sensible, OotP was ahead of the game in providing Intelligence grades) while also perhaps being strict with a 'declaration' before the round, with the Director writing out the monster's intentions on a scrap of paper. You could then couple this with tying the ability of PCs to manipulate the combat environment, which includes their relative position to the monster, to their special skills - especially the movement skills, but perhaps also strength, certain lore skills, etc.

Anyway, I'm rambling....

Post Reply