Outnumbered combat rules

HedgeWizard
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby HedgeWizard » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:10 am

Hi drbargle,

I had some thoughts along the lines about how to bring a more tactical approach to combat at the end of this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2292

Any thoughts?
drbargle
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby drbargle » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:25 am

"When fighting the player writes on a small piece of paper (post it note) maximum of two bullet points describing how he will attack and how they will use their weapon. The GM or opponent does the same. Both are then revieled and compared. The group then votes on which has the advantage, they then gain a bonus of +1 or + 2 depending on how strong everyone thinks it is."

I like the simplicity of this. I'd still probably keep it for duels and the like, rather than every combat.

Re: manoeuvres. One option is to go the Mongoose RuneQuest 2/RuneQuest 6 route and have 'special effects' *applied* after the combat roll. So, if an Adventurer beats a monster or NPC by a certain margin (not sure what I'd set it at here) he or she could disarm, maximise damage, strike to injure, trip, push back, etc. each of which is resolved in its own way.

Another option is to make up a series of combat cards, each with a manoeuvre on it. Let's say 6. Then we have a simple 6x6 table to compare the relative effects of these manoeuvre.

Of course, both of these limit the freedom of your two line rule by formalising the player options. As someone taken with some of what is presented as the tenets of 'Old School' play (see Matt Finch's 'Primer'), I like the fact that AFF is a simple system open to the Director (and 'the table') making rulings - as in your option - on the fly, which accommodates not only freedom of action but also frees being a 'good' player from system mastery.
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SkinnyOrc
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby SkinnyOrc » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:06 pm

drbargle wrote:one or two Adventurers attract the attacks of a big monster, but by fighting defensively minimise the chances of taking damage, while the remaining Adventurers go for all out attacks (if the outnumbering bonus is high enough) or feints (with no risk of taking damage, never mind extra damage) to chop the monster to bits.
Well first thing is good on them for playing smart! :) I'd have the monster attack whoever hurt it most in the previous round, that just seems like a natural reaction. With a smart opponent it might not even work the first round if they notice some of the PCs making an effort to attract attention but not properly closing. Also keep in mind how many PCs you think can attack at once depending on the space. Even low intelligence monsters may use what's around them to limit the direction they can be attacked from. By the way my opinion is missile attacks should count for outnumbering but there's the penalties for missiles past your comrades.
drbargle
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby drbargle » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:13 pm

[quote="SkinnyOrc]Well first thing is good on them for playing smart! :)[/quote]

Definitely. It was good play - I think the first time my group properly twigged that this was a viable tactic was when fighting the Manticore in the Crown of Kings campaign. The sorcerer also cast GOB to get a good outnumbering bonus.

[quote="SkinnyOrc]I'd have the monster attack whoever hurt it most in the previous round, that just seems like a natural reaction. With a smart opponent it might not even work the first round if they notice some of the PCs making an effort to attract attention but not properly closing. Also keep in mind how many PCs you think can attack at once depending on the space, and also the penalties for missiles past your comrades. Even low intelligence monsters may use what's around them to limit the direction they can be attacked from.[/quote]

Yes, I probably should have had the Manticore (in this case) back into a corner to protect itself, etc. Like I said (in this thread, or another?) one of the things I really need to get better at is creating more dynamic environments for combat encounters. Again, this is one of the things I am trying to take from FATE, thinking about the narrative effects of 'zones' rather than the mechanical effects, and applying rulings according to clever in-world play rather than mechanical system exploits.
drbargle
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby drbargle » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:13 pm

I see that I worked out how to quote a previous post! D'oh!
HedgeWizard
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby HedgeWizard » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:03 pm

Being more a Narrative driven gamer the Viscera document really appeals to me. So thank you for all the work you put into it!

Going back the the old school roots is also a good idea. I (and I suspect many others) have a tendency of wanting to create rules to cover everything when often the fewer the rules the better - let the imagination drive the story!

I really enjoy systems like Risus and also Engel Matrix games for this reason.

So we could even say that you don't need a matrix or set of rules to define exactly what attacks or special combat actions have what effects. Do a set of matrix game pro/con arguments and keep the story moving!
HedgeWizard
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby HedgeWizard » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:17 pm

Something which was an insperation for me were the Duel! Rules within Spanish Fury ( http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/SpanishMain.html ) From the Perfect Captain. It's a small sub game within the larger framework for simulating quick and entertaining duels between the commanders of companies in the 16th century. Really simple and not 100% comparable with AFF but it was fun and an interesting idea.

Perhaps something which could inspire a card based approach?
Eddie
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby Eddie » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:38 pm

i can see a situation, dependant on positioning, where 4 ogres (each with 2A) fight 4 adventurers in such a way that each ogre is capable of fighting two opponents each round.
the heroes should probably avoid this position as it is giving an advantage to their opponents.

even if you have 4 adventurers abreast in a corridor facing 4 ogres abreast the ogres can always reach more than one opponent thinking about it.

I found that having a well armoured character fighting multiple opponents, but fighting defensively, can tie them up for a while and his other adventuring friends can take out other enemies at that time.
I used this when playtesting the combat system and trying out ideas.
HedgeWizard
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Re: Outnumbered combat rules

Postby HedgeWizard » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:21 am

Eddie wrote:i can see a situation, dependant on positioning, where 4 ogres (each with 2A) fight 4 adventurers in such a way that each ogre is capable of fighting two opponents each round.
the heroes should probably avoid this position as it is giving an advantage to their opponents.

even if you have 4 adventurers abreast in a corridor facing 4 ogres abreast the ogres can always reach more than one opponent thinking about it.

I found that having a well armoured character fighting multiple opponents, but fighting defensively, can tie them up for a while and his other adventuring friends can take out other enemies at that time.
I used this when playtesting the combat system and trying out ideas.


That's the sort of thinking which makes things interesting :-). It's not just about lining people up and whaloping each other, think tactically and make in interesting in ways like you describe here.

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