Are warriors to weak?

darksoul
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Are warriors to weak?

Post by darksoul » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:35 am

This thread has come about due to the thread on Sorcerers being to strong.

It's occurred to me that players have to question why they would want to play a warrior or fighter type character. When players have the option to play a spell caster, why would they want to play a warrior or fighter?

The new talent system is great, but since I haven't tested it out yet, I don't know if that's enough to make someone want to play a warrior.

After skimming the Trolltooth wars, I don't understand why a warriors job can't be done by a wizard or some other caster, or why it can't be done better?

Spellcasters can have a near infinite number of spells. They just need to find new spells and memorize the, or add them to their collection. Along with that, the wizards spells vary in effect power and the kind of damage. Warriors just hit, bash and act as shields if necessary.

Btw, I don't see this as just a fighting fantasy thing. I think it's an issue I've seen with other fantasy RPG's too and I want to evoke discussion.

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by Brimgeth » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:33 am

I don't think warriors are weak. The way I see it in simple terms is that magic and its use is intended to be a rare thing. A wizard can be powerful, but if they exhaust themselves casting their spells a warrior is still capable to get close and stick a sword through them.

In most games a wizard will be unable to wear any form of armour and is restricted to using simple weapons, usually no more than a knife. This is the wizard's fall back option, because once they burn through their spells, they will need to retreat to rest and recover.

Consider the AFF game where if you wish to play a competent wizard, you will be sinking a lot of your building points to MAGIC; because of this your SKILL, STAMINA, and LUCK scores will not be as high as the player who elects to be a barbarian warrior. You may have selected Combat special skills, but as a rule the wizard isn't going to be very practised in swinging a sword; depending on your characteristics your wizard may be no better than an orc statswise. Also your spell selections are going to be restricted to the 1 or 2 point cost spells; no Death spell for your spell book yet, apprentice!
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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by d6&d6 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:29 pm

Except for the sorcerer who needs to be looked over in play, the game is very balanced. A warrior type does very well in play.
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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by bottg » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:14 pm

d6&d6 wrote:Except for the sorcerer who needs to be looked over in play, the game is very balanced. A warrior type does very well in play.
When you do see a Sorcerer in play, you might be surprised at how balanced they actually are!

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by Mr Nibbs » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:34 pm

At the start of this thread, Darksoul wrote "After skimming the Trolltooth wars, I don't understand why a warriors job can't be done by a wizard or some other caster, or why it can't be done better?"

It's about the playing style. Generic fantasy fighters place their trust in physical things and prowess in combat. Magic is viewed with suspicion because it is not controllable by physical strength and cannot be trusted. The personality of a fighter and a wizard would be completely different.

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by d6&d6 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:44 pm

parkusuk wrote:
d6&d6 wrote:Except for the sorcerer who needs to be looked over in play, the game is very balanced. A warrior type does very well in play.
When you do see a Sorcerer in play, you might be surprised at how balanced they actually are!
I had a sorcerer in play and he had a hard time with stuff encountered by his more warrior type companions. But again, as a Gm, if I wasn't careful to prepare my adventures with the sorcerer in the equation, some encounters ended up with a single shot of a ZAP spell. :shock:

That's where I am when I say it needs to be looked upon. Warriors or any non-magical characters doesn't have the specials effects to do good stuff so preparing for this type is an easy ride 8)
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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by Slloyd14 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:38 pm

I don't think warriors are underpowered for the reasons mentioned above - they don't have to put anything into magic and so only have 3 stats to put their points in. They will probably take skill 7 and a weapon skill with two points to start with, giving them a respectable 'combat' skill of 9. Also, a warrior's skills will never run out. A warrior can fight all day long, wheras magic points run out.
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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by Mr Nibbs » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:06 am

Slloyd14 wrote:I don't think warriors are underpowered for the reasons mentioned above - they don't have to put anything into magic and so only have 3 stats to put their points in. They will probably take skill 7 and a weapon skill with two points to start with, giving them a respectable 'combat' skill of 9. Also, a warrior's skills will never run out. A warrior can fight all day long, wheras magic points run out.
I don't think it's right that a warrior can fight at the same level of expertise all day long. All those small cuts and bruises, blunted weapons and damaged armour should have an effect. Any ideas about that?

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by d6&d6 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:38 am

Mr Nibbs wrote:I don't think it's right that a warrior can fight at the same level of expertise all day long. All those small cuts and bruises, blunted weapons and damaged armour should have an effect. Any ideas about that?
Warriors basically have one trick in their hats and it's their SKILL and special skill. It's a matter of taste but I prefer that they could keep their skill full even if they had a couple of fights during the day.

Wizards on the other hand can do many powerful things with their magic. It's ok to limit them so that they wont cast fireballs infinitely!
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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by joesmith » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:25 pm

What you're talking about Mr Nibbs is also fatigue. Personally, I don't have a problem with warriors because they have skilled themselves up to be able to fight and don't need any additional resources like wizards. However, the longer a fight goes on, the more tired a warrior will be and less effective they will be (John Carpenter's "They Live" anyone? Geesh, just put the glasses on already!). What you could say is that if the warrior (and any other fighter for that matter) keeps fighting battles without rest, they would suffer a -1 to their skill. Only rest or potions would restore this. Just a completely random-off-the-top-of-head idea, maybe characters could have a Fatigue rating (equal to their Skill, maybe have a special skill which increases this?). For every amount of combat rounds equal to their Fatigue that they fight, they take a -1 Skill penalty. Or, for every 10 rounds they fight they must Test Their Fatigue? Or after defeating an opponent? Or something!

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by Mr Nibbs » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:06 pm

joesmith wrote:What you're talking about Mr Nibbs is also fatigue. Personally, I don't have a problem with warriors because they have skilled themselves up to be able to fight and don't need any additional resources like wizards. However, the longer a fight goes on, the more tired a warrior will be and less effective they will be (John Carpenter's "They Live" anyone? Geesh, just put the glasses on already!). What you could say is that if the warrior (and any other fighter for that matter) keeps fighting battles without rest, they would suffer a -1 to their skill. Only rest or potions would restore this. Just a completely random-off-the-top-of-head idea, maybe characters could have a Fatigue rating (equal to their Skill, maybe have a special skill which increases this?). For every amount of combat rounds equal to their Fatigue that they fight, they take a -1 Skill penalty. Or, for every 10 rounds they fight they must Test Their Fatigue? Or after defeating an opponent? Or something!
That's the general idea, but I didn't see it being related to a single combat, but for the last encounter at the end of a tough day. As d6&d6 points out, skills need to stay the same for various reasons, so a fatigue check is probably best used as a one-off in special circumstances. It is more like a test of endurance under extreme circumstances.

Relating fatigue to Stamina, I'm looking at ways in which Stamina loss might affect the use of Skills. It seems reasonable to assume that skill level will not change much over the course of a day or two, but how effective they are when a character is heading for exhaustion is another matter. Adjusting the damage or effects might do it. This wouldn't just apply to fighters or combats, and could be used for other strenuous physical activities, like climbing or swimming.

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by darksoul » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:56 pm

I'm really pleased that this has promoted a lot of discussion.

My opinion on this is based on MMORPG's. A player once pointed out to me two things.
1)Characters a larger variety of attacks that have different effects are more advantageous than those with a single types of attack and single type of damage.

Therefore a wizard could either, burn, electrify, freeze, paralyze or death spell an enemy. A warrior can melee or shoot it with a steel weapon. I am not taking into account magical weapons here. I will add in the idea that some creatures can only be harmed by magical weapons, which in a sense means only a spellcaster can deal with the problem if the warrior has no magical weapon.

2)While I could kill 3 creatures in 3 rounds with my sword, he could kill 3 creatures in 1 round with 1 spell.

This situation has a few extra factors to consider though. Players could rest at any time and automatically recover spells and spell power. Which means that they had an endless supply of spell power more or less.

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by darksoul » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:13 pm

Mr Nibbs wrote:
joesmith wrote:What you're talking about Mr Nibbs is also fatigue. Personally, I don't have a problem with warriors because they have skilled themselves up to be able to fight and don't need any additional resources like wizards. However, the longer a fight goes on, the more tired a warrior will be and less effective they will be (John Carpenter's "They Live" anyone? Geesh, just put the glasses on already!). What you could say is that if the warrior (and any other fighter for that matter) keeps fighting battles without rest, they would suffer a -1 to their skill. Only rest or potions would restore this. Just a completely random-off-the-top-of-head idea, maybe characters could have a Fatigue rating (equal to their Skill, maybe have a special skill which increases this?). For every amount of combat rounds equal to their Fatigue that they fight, they take a -1 Skill penalty. Or, for every 10 rounds they fight they must Test Their Fatigue? Or after defeating an opponent? Or something!
That's the general idea, but I didn't see it being related to a single combat, but for the last encounter at the end of a tough day. As d6&d6 points out, skills need to stay the same for various reasons, so a fatigue check is probably best used as a one-off in special circumstances. It is more like a test of endurance under extreme circumstances.

Relating fatigue to Stamina, I'm looking at ways in which Stamina loss might affect the use of Skills. It seems reasonable to assume that skill level will not change much over the course of a day or two, but how effective they are when a character is heading for exhaustion is another matter. Adjusting the damage or effects might do it. This wouldn't just apply to fighters or combats, and could be used for other strenuous physical activities, like climbing or swimming.
If some kind of fatigue effect is required of the warrior, than I would say that a spell caster should do the same for casting spells and losing magic. I'm sure it's easy to think that spellcasters "Just say a few words and the effect happen" but spellcasting requires use of energy(magic points or stamina) and focus. I know from personal experience that physical exertion may exhaust you by making you sore or breathless, but mental exertion can make you unfocused, unmotivated, tired. Essentially, burn out.

Mr.Nibbs, Joe Smith, I'll add more opinions about stamina and exhaustion after.

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by Mr Nibbs » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:34 pm

darksoul wrote:If some kind of fatigue effect is required of the warrior, than I would say that a spell caster should do the same for casting spells and losing magic. I'm sure it's easy to think that spellcasters "Just say a few words and the effect happen" but spellcasting requires use of energy(magic points or stamina) and focus. I know from personal experience that physical exertion may exhaust you by making you sore or breathless, but mental exertion can make you unfocused, unmotivated, tired. Essentially, burn out.

Mr.Nibbs, Joe Smith, I'll add more opinions about stamina and exhaustion after.
Absolutely. The idea is that this would apply to all characters and might reflect a combination of physical and mental exhaustion. Having done a bit of LARP and medieval re-enactment, I found there is a point at which sheer tiredness affects everything. There is a lot of brain-work in combat and the effects are much the same as you suggest for mental exhaustion.

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Re: Are warriors to weak?

Post by darksoul » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:23 am

Mr. Nibbs, if you're looking for something involving fatigue, than you can try something along this line. I don't have a set system set up but the jist of it is this.
Have the player fight and lose skill during combat. If he wants to recover his skill than he must fight defensively for a certain amount of time till it recovers. Otherwise he risks losing more skill(and taking longer to recover). At the end of the fight he recovers all Skill provided he rests.

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