proportion of thepopulation by skill

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Slloyd14
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proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by Slloyd14 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:23 pm

Just wondering what people think about how much of the population have a particular kill value or a value in a special skill. Here's my opinion:

Skill 5 or less: about 85%
Skill 6: 10%
Skill 7: 3%
Skill 8: 1%
Skill 9: 0.5%
Skill 10: 0.25%
Skill 11: 0.1%
Skill 12: 0.01%

The proportion of people whose highest special skill score (not including languages) is:

2 or less about 80%
3: 18%
4: 1%
5: 0.1%
6: 0.01%

The numbers are rough. What do people think?
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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by darksoul » Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:39 am

Sounds about right, but why do you need this info?

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by Slloyd14 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:22 am

darksoul wrote:Sounds about right, but why do you need this info?
Just because I'm a completist.
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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by torus » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:10 pm

I'd largely go along with these numbers - pretty much in agreement with my thoughts previously in this thread: http://arion-games.com/bb/viewtopic.php ... 2137#p2137. If anything I'd make the high SKILL value even more rare. Something like:

Skill 4 or less: about 20%
Skill 5: 60%
Skill 6: 15%
Skill 7: 3%
Skill 8: 1%
Skill 9: 0.1%
Skill 10: 0.01%
Skill 11: 0.001%
Skill 12: 0.0001%

SKILL 12 individuals are almost superhumanly able, with I think ~97% chance of success at typical tasks for which they have no previous training or expertise. One in a million seems about right for this.

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by darksoul » Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:39 pm

Just a few points I wanted to add to complicate these charts.

These numbers only apply to humans. In other races the numbers would be different.
In near extinct or rare humanoid races the numbers wouldn't even match the scaling pattern.

Troglodytes are listed as skill 5. This is assumed to be their warrior class/hunter gatherer class.
Every book encounter with a shapechanger is a skill 10 challenge.

Also, the higher skill level of 10-12 may have a higher percentage number, but from a statistical story perspective(not a comparative real world census statistical perspective) the % of skill 10-12 creatures may be much higher since we use sk 10-12 creatures as needed for the story, not based on a random encounter.

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by Slloyd14 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:06 pm

darksoul wrote:Just a few points I wanted to add to complicate these charts.

These numbers only apply to humans. In other races the numbers would be different.
In near extinct or rare humanoid races the numbers wouldn't even match the scaling pattern.

Troglodytes are listed as skill 5. This is assumed to be their warrior class/hunter gatherer class.
Every book encounter with a shapechanger is a skill 10 challenge.

Also, the higher skill level of 10-12 may have a higher percentage number, but from a statistical story perspective(not a comparative real world census statistical perspective) the % of skill 10-12 creatures may be much higher since we use sk 10-12 creatures as needed for the story, not based on a random encounter.
Now I would like to know (whether there is an official line on this or if it is opinion) if a skill 10 monster in the various 'pit' books actually have a skill of 10 or whether its skill + combat skill is 10 and they don't bother to differentiate as you're just going to kill it anyway. I have learnt that I shouldn't write out every skill and talent of an NPC, but you should know their natural skill just in case they need to do a test for something that they are not used to.
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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by torus » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:01 am

Surely the only feasible interpretation is that monster SKILL values include relevant combat special skills for whatever mode of attack they use. That's certainly how they are used in practice. I suppose if you needed a monster's base skill for some reason I'd assume a value in the same range as that for humans. Perhaps some creatures like elves are skewed to slightly higher skill values, while others such as goblins would tend to be lower.

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by darksoul » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:39 am

Slloyd14 wrote: Now I would like to know (whether there is an official line on this or if it is opinion) if a skill 10 monster in the various 'pit' books actually have a skill of 10 or whether its skill + combat skill is 10 and they don't bother to differentiate as you're just going to kill it anyway. I have learnt that I shouldn't write out every skill and talent of an NPC, but you should know their natural skill just in case they need to do a test for something that they are not used to.
My current opinion is that monster stats are purely for combat since the only reason you needed to know their stats from the game books was combat.
Whether that is their Skill + special skill depends on the creature. If it's humanoid, I make it skill + special skill. If it's a beast then I make that I say it's only the skill and no special skill is added.

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by Slloyd14 » Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:57 pm

Also, from a stat point of view, having a skill of 12 compared to 11 is almost pointless as you fail on a 12 regardless. The cost of XP to go from 10 to 11 (220xp) might not be worth the probability increase of 2/36 it grants. The thing with a 2d6 system is that when you improve to 8 or more, it gives you less and less probability increase.
torus wrote:I'd largely go along with these numbers - pretty much in agreement with my thoughts previously in this thread: http://arion-games.com/bb/viewtopic.php ... 2137#p2137. If anything I'd make the high SKILL value even more rare. Something like:

Skill 4 or less: about 20%
Skill 5: 60%
Skill 6: 15%
Skill 7: 3%
Skill 8: 1%
Skill 9: 0.1%
Skill 10: 0.01%
Skill 11: 0.001%
Skill 12: 0.0001%

SKILL 12 individuals are almost superhumanly able, with I think ~97% chance of success at typical tasks for which they have no previous training or expertise. One in a million seems about right for this.
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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by Slloyd14 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:48 pm

Now that the rule that special skills should be nore more than 1/2 a character's skill are canon, these numbers are different.

Here are Torus's values as they are best:

Skill 4 or less: about 20%
Skill 5: 60%
Skill 6: 15%
Skill 7: 3%
Skill 8: 1%
Skill 9: 0.1%
Skill 10: 0.01%
Skill 11: 0.001%
Skill 12: 0.0001%

Since the population with a skill of 6 or above is 19.1111% at most, we need to change these numbers a bit, so that the skill values can be no more than the percentage of people with twice that value in SKILL.

2 or less: about 85%
3: about 14%
4: 0.5%
5: 0.05%
6: 0.00001%

Of course, some people may have MAGIC scores of 12 which give them 6 points in a skill. But I'll think of that later.

I'm just going through my posts to make my definitive AFF collection of stuff.
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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by gloccus » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:55 am

I agree that for being who can learn skills, the SKILL value given in the books represents SKILL + Weapon Special Skill. However, the number of mortal enemies with such an effective SKILL of more than 12 is vanishingly small, even though it is not unheard of for enemies to use magic combat-enhancing items. Furthermore, the heroes of the books, some of whom are presumably amongst the greatest fighters the world has ever seen, are limited to a maximum SKILL of 12. My final point is that in the AFF2e Rulebook, it says that a Special Skill of 4 (or more) represents a master.

Therefore, I would like to suggest a controversial house rule:
Heroes should have their SKILL capped at 8 instead of 12 as stated in the rules.

I realize that this will seem shocking to many, but it gives a maximum combat skill (without magical assistance) of 8(SKILL) + 4(Special Skill) = 12, the same as in the books. Here I am assuming that Special Skills are limited to half of SKILL or MAGIC as appropriate, as this seems to be the norm now. It also means that Knowledge Skills based on SKILL are limited to a maximum of 12, which I think is fine for heroes. However, it is still possible for specialists to have up to 6 points in Knowledge Special Skills, giving them a total up to 18, by basing them off the MAGIC characteristic.

Characters from the books can be converted into AFF2e heroes by the following table:
Book SKILL .. AFF2e SKILL .. Swords Special Skill
....12..............8...................4
....11..............8...................3
....10..............7...................3
.... 9.............. 7...................2
.... 8.............. 6...................2
.... 7.............. 5...................2
.... 6.............. 4...................2
.... 5.............. 4...................1
As shields in the books almost all add a point of SKILL or add 1 to Attack Strength or subtract one from an opponent's Attack Strength, books which list a shield in starting equipment should reduce the hero's SKILL by one point before conversion. Similarly for FF41 Master of Chaos where the hero explicitly has such a penalty due to not starting with a shield. Also, you may feel that, for example, the excellent broadsword carried by the hero of FF5 City of Thieves should also give a bonus to Attack Strength and so SKILL should be reduced by one to compensate.

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by Ruffnut » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:21 am

gloccus wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:55 am
I agree that for being who can learn skills, the SKILL value given in the books represents SKILL + Weapon Special Skill. However, the number of mortal enemies with such an effective SKILL of more than 12 is vanishingly small, even though it is not unheard of for enemies to use magic combat-enhancing items. Furthermore, the heroes of the books, some of whom are presumably amongst the greatest fighters the world has ever seen, are limited to a maximum SKILL of 12. My final point is that in the AFF2e Rulebook, it says that a Special Skill of 4 (or more) represents a master.

Therefore, I would like to suggest a controversial house rule:
Heroes should have their SKILL capped at 8 instead of 12 as stated in the rules.

I realize that this will seem shocking to many, but it gives a maximum combat skill (without magical assistance) of 8(SKILL) + 4(Special Skill) = 12, the same as in the books. Here I am assuming that Special Skills are limited to half of SKILL or MAGIC as appropriate, as this seems to be the norm now. It also means that Knowledge Skills based on SKILL are limited to a maximum of 12, which I think is fine for heroes. However, it is still possible for specialists to have up to 6 points in Knowledge Special Skills, giving them a total up to 18, by basing them off the MAGIC characteristic.

Characters from the books can be converted into AFF2e heroes by the following table:
Book SKILL .. AFF2e SKILL .. Swords Special Skill
....12..............8...................4
....11..............8...................3
....10..............7...................3
.... 9.............. 7...................2
.... 8.............. 6...................2
.... 7.............. 5...................2
.... 6.............. 4...................2
.... 5.............. 4...................1
As shields in the books almost all add a point of SKILL or add 1 to Attack Strength or subtract one from an opponent's Attack Strength, books which list a shield in starting equipment should reduce the hero's SKILL by one point before conversion. Similarly for FF41 Master of Chaos where the hero explicitly has such a penalty due to not starting with a shield. Also, you may feel that, for example, the excellent broadsword carried by the hero of FF5 City of Thieves should also give a bonus to Attack Strength and so SKILL should be reduced by one to compensate.
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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by HedgeWizard » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:44 am

gloccus wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:55 am
I realize that this will seem shocking to many, but it gives a maximum combat skill (without magical assistance) of 8(SKILL) + 4(Special Skill) = 12, the same as in the books. Here I am assuming that Special Skills are limited to half of SKILL or MAGIC as appropriate, as this seems to be the norm now. It also means that Knowledge Skills based on SKILL are limited to a maximum of 12, which I think is fine for heroes. However, it is still possible for specialists to have up to 6 points in Knowledge Special Skills, giving them a total up to 18, by basing them off the Magic characteristic.
I think this is an excellent idea! I've always struggled with the fact that heros can gain such God like powers in terms of skills and SKILL level so quickly. It also makes the game less interesting for me when you can just whlop your way through problems without any real opposition. This makes you think more to find ways to put the odds more in your faver rather than attacking problems head on.

Although it would also require the director to used enemies a little differently to not just destroy the players all the time.

I would even go so far as to suggest limiting MAGIC to 8 except in the case of really powerful spell casters!

For your suggestion in shields I'm not so in agreement with you. In AFF2 shields are giving an armour bonus rather than skill, reducing the damage of a hit rather than chance of being hit. So you would have to pick one approach or the other

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Re: proportion of thepopulation by skill

Post by gloccus » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:20 am

Thank-you both for your kind comments.

I don't think it's a problem to have two different rules for shields. In the solo books, they add a point of Attack Strength (or SKILL, or deduct a point of Attack Strength from the opponent, which are all equivalent in combat), whilst in AFF2e, they provide armour protection.

The point I was making was that the +1AS is already factored into the books in which the hero carries a shield as part of his or her starting equipment. Therefore, to create a comparable hero in AFF2e, the effective skill has to be reduced by one. This is then balanced by the fact that the hero starts with a shield which reduces the damage that he or she takes in combat. In fact, the statistical effect of a large shield's damage reduction is only slightly less than one point of Attack Strength (depending upon weapons and armour), so I think it is a fair representation of a book-hero in the roleplaying game.

For example, suppose we want to convert the hero of FF34 Stealer of Souls. Say he rolls a 4 to generate a SKILL of 10. He also starts with a sword, leather armour (i.e. Leather Hauberk) and a shield. Now at some point, he might have to fight a Skeleton Man with a SKILL of 8 and a STAMINA of 6. On average, he will lose about 2 STAMINA in the battle. However, in AFF2e, such a character would only lose around 1.3 STAMINA on average, due to the protection offered by a large shield. Meanwhile, a character whose SKILL+Swords Special Skill was only 9, would lose (on average) about 2.2, much closer. Therefore, I stick by my suggestion that heroes from books who start with shields should have their SKILL reduced by one point before being converted to AFF2e, even when using the AFF2e rules for shields. Of course, all this is only a suggestion! After all, the number one rule is to have fun.

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