Any plan for à third édition ?

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bottg
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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by bottg » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:57 pm

Certainly makes me think that there is a small supplement in those ideas!

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Dawndeath
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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Dawndeath » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:13 pm

Fantastic! :mrgreen:

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by SkinnyOrc » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:53 pm

I put this together to show how the AFF creatures are spread out by Attack Strength (SKILL). It includes OotP and BtP but not RttP (because I already had the numbers for those). The blue bars are the number of types of creatures with that AS.

The lines are the total number of adventures the PCs need to do to get that AS. The red line is using the current XP rules and the yellow line is using the rule that WSS can't exceed half SKILL. Both start at 9 because that's what's possible for starting PCs (SKILL 7 + WSS 2). The red line heads right fast because it's 4 cheap WSS advances, 1 per adventure. Then the line gets steeper as you need to take SKILL advances. The yellow line zig zags because it's a WSS advance, a SKILL advance, another WSS advance, two SKILL advances, another WSS advance and so on.

I've added a green line that's the same as the yellow line but with WSS advances costing new number x20 instead of x10. That reduces the zig zag because WSS advances aren't quite so cheap compared to SKILL. You could do that just for Combat category special skills but I don't think it'd be a problem to be across the board. The thing is special skill "new numbers" stop at 6, while SKILL starts higher and stops at 12. So special skills are cheaper even at x20.

I take a few things from this. The WSS half SKILL rule obviously delays AS going up so it's an improvement, and it's a little better again with the WSS cost being x20. But even at 9 the PC is already more than a match for most of the AFF creatures. Most of the monsters are on the left side of the graph and the PCs spend most of their career on the right side. Keep in mind that an advantage of more than 2 makes it an easy fight, although out numbering and situation modifiers can pull that back a bit.


Image


It looks like it would be better if maximum starting AS was lower, maybe 7. That could be achieved by reducing maximum starting SKILL to 5, or by doing something different with WSS. The yellow line on the second graph below is WSS limited to half SKILL and SKILL starting at 5. The green line is the same with WSS costing new number x 20. The lines head off the top of the graph but keep going to AS 18. That green line looks pretty good to me and it doesn't even involve messing with WSS bonuses.


Image
Last edited by SkinnyOrc on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Eddie » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:13 pm

I think the way to use the extended critical hit range is to make it so that the Skill damage doesn't happen until after the fight.

cover that with whatever story telling mechanic you want: adrenaline keeps you going, its only afterwards that you realise the damage you have incurred.

that way the multiple goblins attacking you retain their "lucky critical" threat level.

as for low skill high special skill NPC's just don't use the same rules for creating NPC's as PC's.
This does mean that Bob the barbarian is likely to be ripped off the Gheed the unscrupulous merchant, but isn't that likely anyway?


as for tactics, my players starting to gang up on ghouls after their 6th or so fight against them as they realised they could, in all practicality, kill 1 or 2 in the first round if they ganged up 3 on 1 while defending against the rest.
took too long in my opinion! but after having some of them paralysed in a few fights they did learn.

i have a partially completed dungeon called the dungeon of thorns wherein goblins and garks live together and use their tactics and training, along with unique dungeon layout, to defeat the rampaging orcs in the area.

at some point i will finish the 3 dungeon adventure arc they are part of and reveal them all. my main issue being map drawing online as its not something i do for my tabletop games except by pen and paper

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Eddie » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:15 pm

bottg wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:15 am
One option is to take either the WFRP 2e approach or the Adventures in Middle Earth option.

The former has templates that can be added to a standard monster. So the "Brute" Template might look like:

Brute
+2 STA
+1 on Damage rolls

Champion might look like:

Champion
+1 SKILL
+3 STA
Improved Armour (1 step)

and so forth. You could have Hero, Shaman, Legendary and so on, suitable for both humanoid and animal forms.


The AiME supplement "The Road goes ever on..." has a table that adds Strengths or Weaknesses to an encounter. This could be a magical item or ability, bonuses to stats or abilities, special powers, tactical approaches or increased number [Strengths] or limitations, penalties to stats or worse equipment [Weaknesses]. A Director can use this to increase or decrease the threat from an encounter.

Whatever approach is used, it must also be remembered that the original FF gamebooks were very much a Resource Management game as well. It was rarely the case that an individual fight threatened a Hero. With healing somewhat limited, the STAMINA of a Hero gets whittled down bit by bits so that when a powerful opponent or boss is fought, that is when the real threat appears.
Ganging up too makes a difference, especially if static target numbers are used for missile attacks. Even a powerful hero fighting twelve Goblins is likely to be in trouble. Twelve arrows first up vs a static target number will see a fair number hitting and most of those causing some damage. Outnumbering at say six-to-one means that all of the Goblins get a +5 bonus to Attack Total, giving them an effective SKILL of 10. And with another six shooting and available as reinforcements, that Hero is in real trouble. This is a bit of an extreme example, but then again Goblins are pretty weak.

You can also throw in ambushes, tactical advantage such as the Heroes fighting in water, mud or smoke, enemy spellcasters, having to protect an NPC etc. Lots of options!
as a side note, or two

1 i love the template idea, should have thought of that myself
2 your example is not that crazy or contrived, my party decided to stealth up onto an ogre cave and all but one passed.
that one got a plethora of spears and weighted nets thrown at them....it didn't end well!

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Slloyd14 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:32 pm

Eddie wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:13 pm

as for low skill high special skill NPC's just don't use the same rules for creating NPC's as PC's.
This does mean that Bob the barbarian is likely to be ripped off the Gheed the unscrupulous merchant, but isn't that likely anyway?


This reminded me of one of Dr Bargle's vlog posts where instead of giving NPCs stats, they get modifiers to certain rolls. So bargaining with Ghees the unscrupulous would have a -4 penalty.

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Eddie » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:48 pm

i like that.
actually i often, instead of using a versus roll, use the monsters skill as a negative modifier.

so instead of both rolling versus for a Sneak vs Awareness, i just give the player a -2 penalty because the goblin scout has Awareness 2
that also removes a low skill opponent losing almost automatically just due to their actual skill of 5

have used this a number of times and it seems to work

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Dawndeath » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:50 am

Eddie wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:48 pm
i like that.
actually i often, instead of using a versus roll, use the monsters skill as a negative modifier.

so instead of both rolling versus for a Sneak vs Awareness, i just give the player a -2 penalty because the goblin scout has Awareness 2
that also removes a low skill opponent losing almost automatically just due to their actual skill of 5

have used this a number of times and it seems to work
That's quite a neat idea - I will have to try that myself.

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by SkinnyOrc » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:32 am

Eddie wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:13 pm
I think the way to use the extended critical hit range is to make it so that the Skill damage doesn't happen until after the fight.

cover that with whatever story telling mechanic you want: adrenaline keeps you going, its only afterwards that you realise the damage you have incurred.

that way the multiple goblins attacking you retain their "lucky critical" threat level.
So with the alternative WSS bonuses earlier in the thread it's only the PCs getting criticals more often. That might sound like it's making it easier for them, but like I said, expanded crits adds less to PC power than increasing AS does.

You might be thinking of my Combat Options mini-supplement where I did suggest an option to give creatures more criticals too. But those only start at SKILL 10, so weak creatures like goblins wouldn't get them. Also I have the option there that the Priest Heal power returns SKILL points lost to criticals, as well as Potions of Skill. Worth noting that it has PCs and monsters being able to have a maximum crit chance of 9-12, and I'm thinking of reducing that to the 10-12 talked about in this thread.

I've graphed my adjusted WSS bonuses too, the yellow line is how that pans out. PC AS starts at 8 because they only get +1 to AS from WSS 2, then it tops out at 15 because they only get +3 to AS with WSS 6. The green line is combining that with making WSS advances cost new value x20. The red line is the standard rules to compare against.

The advantage over the other approaches is PC AS not going past 15, but the alternative in the second graph above looks like it'd also work pretty well and without changing how WSS work.


Image


You could also combine it all; WSS limited to half SKILL, reduce starting SKILL to 5, WSS costs x20 and change WSS bonuses! I need to look at if that's going too far.

Eddie wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:13 pm
as for low skill high special skill NPC's just don't use the same rules for creating NPC's as PC's.
Yeah that does work. Thing is there's also no purpose to applying the half SKILL limit to non-weapon special skills.

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by bottg » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:02 am

Eddie wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:13 pm
as for low skill high special skill NPC's just don't use the same rules for creating NPC's as PC's.
This does mean that Bob the barbarian is likely to be ripped off the Gheed the unscrupulous merchant, but isn't that likely anyway?
I was thinking of adding a new Talent called "Specialist", meaning that one or more related Special Skills (professional ones) are not limited to half SKILL. So a merchant could have a high Bargain, a smith high Crafting etc. A Hero could take this, but it would only really benefit them if it was say pick locks or something like that.

Which 'groups' of skills could you be a specialist in?

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Eddie » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:14 am

i like that a lot, it means you can play a "lock picking specialist" if desired.

or, more to the point, you can hire a specialist at a skill and not also have hired, due to games mechanics, a highly skilled combatant if required.

like a scout (talents in wood lore and plains lore say) but who has low Stamina and Skill so should not be expected to fight at all.

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Eddie » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:21 am

Skinny Orc: i am combining multiple ideas in my comment.

so players, under your variation, will get more critical hits, makes sense from a statistics perspective.

currently in game the players TAKE more critical hits and are hindered more by them. their enemies tend to die so don't suffer the -1 Skill penalty for very long (my suggestion is they don't experience it until after the fight, same for players, due to reasons mentioned. this handily means an intentionally hard fight doesn't become very hard when the first die roll becomes a critical hit)

i have no answers as i think this is more of a complicated issue which leads to unforeseen issues later down the line.

i played around with "Feats" stolen from DnD and similar, whereupon you advance WSS but every other point gives access to an ability chosen from a list.

this was played with for a while before i decided i was just adding complexity...but could still work:
Cleave: if you drop an enemy to zero or less Stamina you can make an attack against an additional enemy once per round
others could just give you benefits to existing combat actions like +1 to total defense action, but then this conflicts with a similar Talent

not to leave wizards/sorcerers out: you could do the same with spells!

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by SkinnyOrc » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:39 pm

Eddie wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:21 am
currently in game the players TAKE more critical hits and are hindered more by them. their enemies tend to die so don't suffer the -1 Skill penalty for very long
Ah right, you mean with the standard rules. Yeah that's been talked about here before but I'm not sure we ever came to a solid conclusion on it. Your fix stops it affecting the current combat but still means that sort of encounter could see them having to retreat back to safety even though the enemies seem like they shouldn't have been that dangerous.

One option would be that rolling a 12 automatically wins that combat and causes double damage... but only causes the SKILL loss if they would have won the combat anyway.

Or rolling a 12 automatically wins that combat, but only causes the double damage and SKILL loss if they would have won the combat anyway.

My houserule of allowing Priest Heal to reverse SKILL loss from crits as well as healing STAMINA helps a little too.

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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Slloyd14 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:29 pm

Here's a way of avoiding the absurd skill + special skill scores.

Special skills only reduce penalties - they don't provide bonuses. This means that the only way to improve your chances is to increase your SKILL.

For example - two heroes with a SKILL of 7 both try to climb an easy slope. One has a Climb skill of 2 and the other does not. However, since the slope is easy, there is no penalty. They both need to roll 7 or less (or 7 or more, depending on how you calculate success) to succeed.

Next, they climb a more difficult slope with a -2 penalty. The hero with the Climb skill still needs to roll 7 or less (or more) to succeed as their +2 skill cancels out the -2 penalty. However, the other hero has to roll a 5 or less (or 9 or more).

Special skills also allow you to do things without rolls (e.g. If you have a 1 in Magic Lore, you can read a scroll), so they are still very important, but this makes increasing SKILL more important than special skills and this will mean that advancement will be slower as going from SKILL 7 to SKILL 8 requires 160 experience as opposed to going from 2 in a skill to 3 which requires 30 experience.

But how does having a weaponskill improve combat? Well, there could be several moves that a hero could make that give a penalty to the SKILL roll, but a bonus. For example, you could take a -1 penalty to the SKILL roll to get a +1 bonus to damage rolls. However, if you have 1 or more points in a weaponskill, you don't take the penalty. Of course, each hero could choose a move that gives -0 to their attack strength and just does normal damage.

This could open new avenues where each weapon could have its own set of moves which do certain things, making the weapons more unique.

Also, even though skills don't provide bonuses, other circumstances might. For example, bargaining with a friendly NPC can still provide a +2 bonus as it is easier.

It's sounds pretty radical to me, but what do other people think?
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Re: Any plan for à third édition ?

Post by Nuvole! » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:20 am

Critical hits: I think there could be an optional rule to deal critical hits not only when you roll a double 6, but also when your attack roll is much higher than needed to hit, for example when between your attack roll and your opponent's attack roll (after all bonuses and penalties are applied) there are 6 or more points.
This would introduce more critical hits and perhaps the need to detail better how you recover from critical hits / losses of SKILL.
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